How technology will impact law and society

Technology is changing.

And it’s pushing on our legal system.

And it will shape society.

What are we seeing?

Where are we headed?

Join The Our Shawn for the Future Done Right(TM) Show as we explore what we are seeing and what we need for the future.

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Below is a machine transcript of the interview —


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Hey everyone is Dr. Sean, welcome to another edition of the future done right SHOW TODAY WE’RE JOINED BY rough, rough call and wolf.



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Is a fellow lawyer, so those you know me and tune into show regularly know I’m an attorney. I work with people on a variety of issues related to ownership and control the company.



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Wolf is also a lawyer who’s moved into the technology side of the world with the new tech, the things that we’re seeing now cryptocurrency blockchain.



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And we were just having a little chat before we got officially started here about securities laws. Some of the overlaps and things going on. So,



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Today we want to take a dive in the kind of the overlap of what’s happening now with technology, what innovation. We got coming



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And how it plays with the law and the future and the technology, innovation and how all these pieces come together.



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Us was going to share some of his expertise with us. We’d love your comments are dropping wherever you’re watching this, whether it’s on my LinkedIn or his LinkedIn or the future done right YouTube channel.



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We remind you, we do not do investment advice, we do not do legal advice on the show, consult your own counsel for that. We’re just here to educate give you ideas gives you some things to start about. So to think about. So, welcome, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining today.



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Thank you. Great to be here.



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Yes, so we were just talking a little bit. I mean, there’s, there’s this very interesting interplay right now, right, the technology, guys.



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And girls jumped out early and started designing a lot of stuff blockchain and crypto currency based off it. And there’s been a lot of innovation and everybody’s kind of been like, this is a new technology we’re going and the regulators have sat in the back for a while.



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And so recently where they’ve started become a lot more active. So we’re getting into an environment where the two or inner playing with each other right the legal side and the



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Technology side they’re they’re trying to figure out how to interface with each other and what the technology people can do without having to interface with regulators what the regulators can do without messing up the technology side and we’re kind of seeing a dance emerge now.



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What do you see



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Yeah, I mean,



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It’s a, it’s really fascinating and on many fronts. I’m just upfront.



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It’s, I think it’s really important that the community understands that we have to have that dialogue.



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being stuck in a tech bubble tech fault for the tech itself that there’s that’s pointless. Right. So there’s some folks who who actually



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They don’t want to consider that regulatory solutions are needed. And I want to tell those folks, we need this. We need, we need to move forward. We need to get



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This this dialogue dialogue going. And I think we are slowly getting the United States from a regulatory arbitrage perspective.



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I actually thought that we would see something much sooner.



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Meeting if jobs and taxes and fundraising and capital formation is going abroad, we would see some sort of reaction to that I expected that two years ago and we didn’t see it.



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Largely because the regulators were not yet familiar with the technology sufficiently but now the the IRS has a huge task force a huge enforcement budget. And I think that has trickled down. Obviously this intro regulator conversations as well. And so the SEC, of course, has been



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Slowly reacting to this. The FTC has been at the forefront. If you want for a while for over a year or two or so.



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And we showed us earlier. So in terms of history from the SEC perspective when has the PS came out with a famous quote on the lifeguard perspective in in tech



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You know, regular just being the lifeguards and helping out and then quote



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Saying that



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The, the technological evolution would should not be hindered by the lacking imagination of the regulator’s I believe that was in March last year.



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And that was a big, big push for a lot of folks who who follow this these regulatory events.



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Unfortunately, we have not seen the SEC staff follow up on this over the summer. But then Jay Clayton this past week came out talking about the latter approach. And so what that means and how that’s implemented it almost sounds like it some equations I



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Sandbox solution in the United States if that’s true.



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And we will see people starting to experiment, more and more with security token offerings, whether they are now reg D offerings or reggae whatever that is. Or if there’s something else that comes out of this and that’s



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From my perspective, a much welcome evolution that that we we really need to work with the regulators and trying to figure out which salute solutions are optimal in the space.



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From the IRS perspective. And I want to say, of every all folks out there who are crypto traders and who thought that they were exempt.



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And the IRS, you know, in some ways, people are looking at this as a threat. It’s really not and if the IRS has enforcement budget in this space.



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And the growth of that budget and the technological solutions that they’re pursuing to figure out who you who invested in in in crypto currencies when and where



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And what are they all to the IRS.



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That is



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Now, if you believe in a legal free zone in crypto, you know, you may be disappointed here, but it’s a I want to, I want to see this as a positive move



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Because we are we’re, we’re now playing with the big boys we playing serious we’re following fully, fully compliant regulatory regimes and once you know what you have to do.



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This both on the on the securities tokens side on the overall SSE regulatory framework and on the IRS side that that create certainty in the market that should encourage people to trade in crypto



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Right, so it’s all the offset between



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uncertainty. Uncertainty, I mean funny regulator knows



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Right certainty distracts people. People don’t want to trade in the environment, the more certainty we get through regulatory guidance. The more people know what to do and they can they can start using this



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Technology within those regulatory constraints. Right. And so we’ve seen in 2018 beginning in 2017 major institutional players come into the into the fold.



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All those institutional players want to see very clear regulatory guidance and and we will we will get more institutional by in the more regulatory guidance we see, and I think this is, as you said, that’s that’s slowly emerging



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It’s slowly emerging but you know that one of the concerns, we’ve had on the show here is just, it’s, it’s this coordinated.



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You know, we have see FTC speaking with one voice SEC speaking with one voice, you’ve got the



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You know, Office of cultural or currency jumping in. Then you got the IRS you have various state authorities, New York, and the federal government got into a fray over who can regulate banking.



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At one point where that lawsuit is I haven’t checked in on in a while and then



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You know, things like the UCC, there’s an interesting issue sitting out there with crypto currency and



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How it gets classified under the UCC because not money. It’s a general intangibles so theoretically every time you receive cryptocurrency you’re supposed to do a lien check. But I don’t know anybody out there that’s



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Doing lean searches.



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Same with the IRS right then they treat currently cryptocurrencies as gold, which of course has major implications.



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On on



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ICO fundraising, because it’s an asset. Yo, you have to pay tax on that right



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Yes, that’s why this debate on on what is the securities token is so central in my estimation, because once we know that we know that this is an investment and as such it wouldn’t be taxable presumably right



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Yes. Absolutely right. It’s disjointed. But we’ve slowly. See the regulatory discourse happening. And it’s slowly coming together because once you fill



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Out the SRS taxes that then we we know the the Securities Regulators have to create the framework to exemption from texting in order to proliferate. The space. And so they have to work hand in hand and



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I had discussions with the SEC over the last two years, and exactly as you say there was often this this baffled. Well, why would we deal with this. Right.



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Yeah, but that’s changing. I think it’s all changing and we’re getting slowly making progress in the space. And so, yeah, the regulators will have to work hand in hand and probably. I mean, right now, what I see SEC an IRS that dynamic that is just right now unfolding. Yeah.



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Yeah we that guidance. Actually, I believe, will help. Overall, the proliferation and evolution of the space and one problem, however, that I’ve been working on.



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At the forefront. If you do if you want is infrastructure development right and if we figure out this whole trading business of cryptocurrencies



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I mean 50 to 60 to 70% of the crypto currencies that we started out with the last year, they won’t be traded very likely



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Next year, so, um, and that that, to me, that’s a, that’s a general problem in the space right i mean regulatory guidance is one thing to figure out what to do and when to do and how to do



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Yep. But technological infrastructure that’s a whole nother ballgame in this in this space right meaning. Yes, what can you actually do with Bitcoin. I mean, it’s a store of value.



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I get that institutional buying, blah, blah.



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But what can you do with a Syria, what are we doing with this theory.



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And what can you do with technology that has 17 transactions per second. I’m not somebody who’s only talking about scaling scaling scaling is failing is pointless if you don’t know what you’re scaling and for what purpose, right.



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Right, no such thing as scaling for the, for the sake of scaling right yes so



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I think



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Yeah, I think I’ve raised an interesting point. I mean that we see the fundamental uses of these coins and we see the reason why you’d want to do it right. I mean, the security of it. The ledgers, the



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The immutability they verify ability from an accounting standpoint, the transport ability. The lower friction



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We had a we had a guest, Dr. David, Nessa Santos, who’s a lawyer out of Orlando and she was talking, she and her before she got deepens the crypto space. She was a public defender. She worked a lot with



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She worked a lot with people who were getting robbed because they had large amounts of currency. So a lot of migrant workers. They don’t have a traditional bank account they save up a lot of cash.



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By season, Rob. So I mean, these are kind of things cryptocurrency can fix, but it’s kind of got to get a market football. Right. It’s got to become standard, to some extent, so the people on the side have the accounts.



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That’s exactly right. What is the standard right. What can you do and the crypto community has been let me put it mildly, hostile



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And to this whole idea of stable currencies. Right. And there’s always this argument. Oh, no. The market will take care of it. Well, the market hasn’t taken care of it and bitcoin, some people on your Bitcoin is stable, look at what happened. Well, it broke down.



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Two weeks ago, and it has often value. So please don’t don’t make it. You really don’t not doing a service to this to the community for to



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regurgitating these old arguments. There is no way that this technology can proliferate.



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Without grandma what one understanding what it is, Grandma, being able to interface with the technology. And thirdly, Grandma, being able to purchase her eggs. Next week for the same price. Okay, there is nothing we are doing that. Otherwise, it’s just speculation and and yeah



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Well, I think.



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I think that’s what i think that’s been one real issue right you talk about grammar. A lot of wealth in the baby boomer generation and beyond right they’re holding massive amounts of wealth and their retirement accounts, etc. So



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If they’re not in the system you’re excluding a huge amount of of fiat money and old money from circulating



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But then the other thing, and I think it’s been interesting. A lot of people have bought cryptocurrency on a speculative basis, right, we’re gonna buy it because we think people are going to start using it will be more value.



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If everybody’s buying it and holding it, you’re not, you don’t have a market. I mean to have a market, you have to have stuff moving back and forth and



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So it’s been interesting because people have been buying this as an investment, rather than as a currency.



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Which kind of got back to where the SEC jumped at it right because so many of these coin offerings are offering not as



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You know, here’s a piece of property, we’re offering like you would see on a traditional crowdfunding we’re offering really what people are buying as an investment which is I think partly how it ended up being a security. Right. You know,



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Yeah. And then you have this whole utility debate, you know, people are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to law firms, trying to get no actual data from the SEC on a utility coin.



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Those that’s all moved in so many ways. Of course, that’s, that’s not how the lawyers are portraying that yeah



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And but yeah so in on the regulatory side. It’s a real question, what do we get guidance on SEO securities tokens first or utility tokens. You’d it sounded like it would be utility tokens. Now the whole debate has shifted towards



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security token but but your point on it just being an investment and people sitting on it and now panicking, of course, in the last few weeks and selling out and now we’re at this point. I mean, if, if you look at coin market cap. It’s, it’s pretty depressing. Yes.



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What’s, what’s happening in this market. And so people then you have, of course, you have those folks Tim Draper. You know, predicting $250,000 per Bitcoin



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People are drumming up the market for obvious reasons, right. And, but then the, the small investor sort of sitting in the middle and says, What am I doing here, and most people are just sitting on the sidelines right now, right, because



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If it’s just an investment that that’s probably not good enough reason anymore. It was a good enough reason last year and the beginning of this year, we had formal your fear of missing out. People are just



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flocking to this.



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And then you have you know ripple and you know everybody’s looking for the next ripple well



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All that in some ways has been flushed out always is still being flushed out. And so people are sitting literally on the silencing what what’s happening in the space. And so to me.



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Once we have somebody who can actually offer a utility and perspective in this space and infrastructure development perspective of what this what this space can actually be in the next five to 10 years what it can enable



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In terms of the future of money and value systems and what that means for society. And you mentioned migrant workers. There’s so many other examples right



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We’re looking at Venezuela, where, where we governments are now playing with step was attempt petro dollar right yep and we have Brazil, we have Turkey with Argentina was



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Staggering devaluation of existing currencies. Right. Yes. All of these governments are saying, well, is there something else. And I’m sure you’ve seen this, this, there’s a survey coming out of Cambridge and there’s one in



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The United States that looks at how many central banks are experimenting with with technology. I spoke at the Federal Reserve.



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I want to say, but the overwhelming majority is is looking at either



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Considering their own cryptocurrency solutions or at least playing with stable currencies. Now they have over 100 I believe stable currencies aren’t right now and



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I would, I would argue that most of them are useless. Excuse me, but I don’t see it. I just don’t see it. And there’s some exceptions.



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You know, Tesla has not passed the audits. But if you look at Tesla trading performance, they are safe harbor right now right people in in



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Volatility environments are really shift shifting into tether. And so given that the government’s are looking, given that stable currencies and crypto play a role.



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Maybe that is the sort of the transformation of trust and and money in the future of crypto has something to do with creating new economic infrastructures.



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That facilitate new solutions for these for these developing nations and let’s just be clear. And so my own work workers revolves around us.



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The IMF has has shown as multiple studies that over 80% of all worldwide.



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economies are developing economies, so we in the United States and Europe, we always look at this from the perspective from our existing sort of legacy wisdom perspective, but the overwhelming majority of countries in the world. They are subject to sub optimal



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Monetary policy making. Highly high volatility banking runs. I mean, all these these volatility issues out there.



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To, to me, and this is where my most of my research with some other is actually focused on



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And to me it this this technology. Once we build infrastructure solutions. That’s, that’s where the should be



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It should be going towards creating stability solutions for developing nations that don’t have what we have in the first world.



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And that that brings up this whole idea of leapfrogging right so if you don’t have the technology, your subject all the support the maladies with your existing currencies and infrastructure solutions and monetary infrastructure so



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You shouldn’t want to build what we have in the first world in America, Europe and Asia, and so forth. You should try to look to this technology as a leap frogging technology and actually accomplished something that is that it creates more societal benefit through stable.



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New Economic solutions.



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Yep, and that that we in the first world cannot build because we are stuck with our legacy systems. It’s much harder for us to get to the next technological evolution with a, with an



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Existing while suboptimal but workable.



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There’s a lot to be like wow, there’s a lot to be unwound in the US system or the European system. And there’s a lot of infrastructure, a lot of players and and of course the politics, you know, we talked a little



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Bit about it but everybody’s got a seat at the table because they’ve already making money off the current system. So they probably don’t want to just change too much, why don’t you tell folks a little bit about what you’re doing and what you see coming here in the future. Well,



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Yeah, so, um, I mean, obviously I’m a, I’m an academic and this this whole idea of what are we doing Krypton. Where’s it going. It really has bothered me over the years and



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My, my friend and co founder cocktails mathematician, so he and I, we



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About three years ago we we started saying, Well, and this was still in the years where everything was evolving and blooming. Right. And everybody’s like, oh, you go jump on make money and whatnot.



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You will never that part of that. Um, so we we just looked at what’s what’s needed in the space and



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And we taught started talking to more and more academic So Craig and I wrote several sort of fundamental papers and we started talking to more and more of our friends and



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This all academics. So we have economists finance professors mathematicians computer scientists



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And the more we talked, and the more we saw that people share our vision. Once you explain it to them for the and that takes time and these things. They all all Textron



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And we, we had this critical mass of folks are saying, No, no, we know we have to build this right so out of that came the Sonata platform and the smarter Research Institute and some other labs.



00:20:04.320 –> 00:20:13.740

And yeah, so that’s basically all we do these days as academics, we are creating infrastructure research so mathematical protocols.



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And to create new infrastructure products for for the for the crypto revolution. Some people say, oh, that’s it’s the newest Syrian and we’re not making that claim. Okay, we’re



00:20:26.310 –> 00:20:41.670

building infrastructure, something that we see is needed, and I don’t want to go into the tech technical nitty gritty at this point. But yeah, it’s all about. So Somalia is all about. We, we know this is the future, but we don’t have the infrastructure. So how do we build the infrastructure.



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And as I alluded to earlier, you cannot do this without a stable currency and we’ve been internally back and forth on this because we you know we talked to the industry.



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Folks, and some of the people who’ve been in this for 910 years and obviously you can imagine they came from a different angle in this, but



00:21:02.220 –> 00:21:11.280

For us it’s about where can you wait, you wait can you go with us. We don’t care about. We’re chain agnostic. Otherwise, we only care about what can you build on top of this and



00:21:11.520 –> 00:21:22.020

What solutions. Can you create for society in the long run. Now these and everything we do is mathematically vetted right we would never we would never do anything. And we only believe the math. Once it’s



00:21:22.800 –> 00:21:36.240

It’s it right so um yeah it’s and so so Mara is really a research project and we have a, I would say, really, really, some argue world class team of



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Technologists and engineer out of Silicon Valley that



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implement our protocols. And so we have some other labs on the on the implementation side out of Silicon Valley. Yep. Um, and Sri which smarter Research Institute is really worldwide and cooperation of academics. So we have Japan, Europe in here right now.



00:21:59.430 –> 00:22:08.010

Different folks we had, I think we have over nine PhDs in is all full, full academics professors who believe in the future of this



00:22:08.400 –> 00:22:20.220

And yeah, so we have we have it somewhere between research and implementation efforts so implementation Silicon Valley and research is global and everything we do is, as I said, mathematically founded



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And so create Katerina we’ve been doing this for almost three years and that’s all we do.



00:22:27.780 –> 00:22:29.130

Some water right



00:22:29.610 –> 00:22:38.940

Very interesting stuff and great stuff for the future because it’s it definitely is needed. Right. I mean, you’ve got some of this whole system has to come together. We got a lot of pieces right now like we’ve talked about pieces on the regulatory side.



00:22:39.240 –> 00:22:50.280

Pieces on technology side at some point we’re going to hit a union and i think i think i love the fundamentals of it. I think there’s a real reason for this, you know, for a blockchain cryptocurrency the audit ability to the



00:22:50.790 –> 00:22:59.010

facilitation of transactions to reduction of some of the costs and info and the total infrastructure over the system. I think it’s great. But we got it all these pieces that come together.



00:22:59.580 –> 00:23:06.570

So well thanks for joining us here. Our goal is always to wake people up. I think he did a great job of getting people thinking about some bigger issues and some things that are out there.



00:23:07.200 –> 00:23:16.500

We always ask our audience like comment share. So if you’re seeing this, like, comment, share let some folks know let your friends know so that they can get woke up to these issues. Well, how do people get ahold of you.



00:23:17.640 –> 00:23:23.430

I’m almost all over social media, you can probably use us as telegram at wolf call



00:23:24.060 –> 00:23:31.350

Okay perfect, so take a look for him, folks, we remind you we don’t do investment advice or legal advice on the show. Everything here is just



00:23:31.680 –> 00:23:42.600

For your education and learning. You could check out past episodes and our upcoming guests that future done right calm, but I hope will it’s going to come back and join us again for another episode, we’ll get deeper into some of these issues.



00:23:43.380 –> 00:23:48.120

But check out future done right calm and get some you get you sign up for our email list or you can just



00:23:48.630 –> 00:23:56.760

Sign up to see the some of the past shows or scroll through and see who’s coming up as future guests, folks. Check that out. Wolf. Thanks for joining us. It was fantastic. Looking forward to



00:23:57.330 –> 00:23:59.220

It before talking to you soon.



00:23:59.850 –> 00:24:01.050

Thank you soon. Thank you.



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